Later this week, I’ll (along with another mystery guest) be on Joe Gagne’s Joe Versus The World podcast (available here on thecubsfan.com!), talking about the WON HOF. The last podcast handled Japan and MMA nominees, so we’re going to be doing WWE(/US?) and Mexico candidates. I have no problems fumbling my way thru the US ones, but I’d like to make sure I’m sensibly thinking about the lucha candidates; I don’t mind disagreeing, but I would be upset with myself if I miss something obvious. The best way to handle it, I figure, is try to write out what I’m thinking ahead of time, so y’all can point out what a dork am for forgetting [x].
FWIW: I don’t have a vote and shouldn’t have a vote. I’ll probably rely a lot of what Jose and people more knowledgeable than me say, but I do that in general. I know what a Gordy list is, but this isn’t going to be detailed to that level because it’s nearly midnight and I’m just trying to get this out of my head. I’ve read the critera, but have seen it applied as a drawing power HOF with wrestling skills important to a lesser degree. On the whole, I like the idea of “an educated panel of experts choose the inductees”, but pretty much little else about the system of the HOF, and I’m down on HOFs in general. Sadly, I do not rule the world, so we’ve got these nominations….
Eddie Guerrero: This is more a WWE one, but yes, without a doubt, and if he hadn’t died, we’d be saying this with more certainty. On the day he died, they were about to center SD! around him from there at least til the main event of WrestleMania, and since it actually took Batista longer to get back, perhaps longer. He got robbed.
Konnan: a top star in a very hot time for a promotion and someone who meant something for attendance, yea, I’d vote for him. The fact that he’s still considered a huge deal after being banished from Mexico for years should say something.
Jose Lothario: no. Maybe he’s bigger in World Class than I know, but it’s kinda surprising to see him listed here. I haven’t heard enough to even suggest that he’s this level and I’m kinda intrigued as to why he would be. (Google turns up not much; the only thing I can find is luchawiki info on his feud with Gran Markus, who’s not nominated.)
Blue Panther: Like Arn Anderson, he’ll be forever stuck on the outside because his role never was to be a Hall of Fame drawing wrestler, but a guy who turned others into HOF guys. Jose’s Gordy List is still up on the wiki, and not much has really changed. By my standards of for HOF wrestlers – all time great workers are included – he gets a vote, but I don’t think he’ll stand much of a chance.
Villano III: back and forth I go here. I think I should vote for him, as a worker who could also draw, but I’m not completely positive on this, and my view is surely tainted by only seeing him from the mask match with Atlantis (which was great) and the following years (which was not.) I think I’d vote yes, but since it seems like I’m voting for everyone, I’d probably put other people ahead of him.
Dr. Wagner Jr Sr..: Top rudo act in the country for an extended period of time, breakup angle with member of trio becomes a memorable feud, this not only seems like what we kinda wanted/wished los Guerreros to be, it also seems like an obvious yes. So I’m sure I’m missing some logical reasoning here, because this is not his first time on the ballot. I don’t think he’s a top tier Mexican candidate, and it does seem harder to get in as anything less than top tier from Mexico.
Paco Alonso: If Shane McMahon took over WWE, and kept it going as is – some bad periods, some good, but no major changes – would he be HOF worthy? It’d hard to vote for someone on the basis of them solely not screwing up the work of people before them. This one’s a no.
Just quick thoughts of my own b/c it’s late…
I feel unfair commenting on Eddy since my WWE viewing pretty much ceased to exist in 2003.
I’d vote for Konnan for sure but the longer he stays around, the more it’s gonna hurt him. He can’t wrestle any more and his drawing is being hurt by the fact fans see what a mess he is and the idea of seeing big-time superstar Konnan is ceasing to exist. I think it’d be great if he took a behind the scenes role and worked WITH Pena, instead of trying to control everything himself, to make AAA better. Konnan would be good at laying out matches and making sure every wrestler knows what their job is since the #1 complaint you hear about AAA is nobody knows what they are doing till 5 minutes before match time. Konnan should hope he gets in this year.
Jose Lothario?
Blue Panther… wow… hard decision. By the Gordy list Jose did, it’d have to be a no. But I still can’t help thinking yes. Much like you, I’m torn. I’d vote for him to keep him on the ballot but I don’t think he’s gonna get in. He will definitely make it at some point… most likely the year he decides to drop his mask b/c he’ll be involved in a major program which will probably catapult someone into superstardom.
Villano III would be ahead of Panther for me. Much like what I said with Konnan, V-III just hurt himself by not retiring in 2001 like he promised he would. He’s just plain embarassing to watch these days unless he’s coming off a week off and working against Signo or Navarro. Not to mention he’s ruined his star power by losing his hair all the time and in tiny arenas where you just don’t expect a guy with his star power to be involved in a stip match… much less where he loses. For his 70’s – 2000 work, he is a no-brainer. The longer he continues, the more he hurts his overall reputation. I’d vote no.
Dr. Wagner Jr. is probably the easiest candidate to judge for me. 100% absolutely… NO. Debuted in 1986. Pop quiz: Someone name one important thing Wagner did from 1986 – 2002. By important thing, I mean something HOF worthy, not “oh, he faced Liger once at Arena Mexico”. Was always considered a below average worker until he toured for New Japan in 1997. Came back and became a lazy worker b/c the tapes clearly showed he could go while in Japan but in Mexico he got by using every cheap trick possible. Was never a draw on his own until 2002ish and even that’s debateable. Doesn’t have an important singles match to his name. Very charasmatic guy, main event player b/c of his charisma and smart business man for not selling his mask yet. HOF candidate? Not yet at least.
I’m with you on Paco Alonso. I think he’s screwed up many things though so I would rank him lower than you.
Rob
For what it’s worth, I think you’ve pretty well got it down. I’d be a bit firmer in my yes for Villano III, though. Also, I tend to think it’s a little early to vote Wagner Jr. in. I can’t think of any good reason to vote against him, though, besides “it’s too early,” which is really just a cop-out way of saying I’m not 100% behind him. Which is weird, because Wagner is probably my favorite guy in CMLL. I guess it’s because he’s just been wandering around doing not much for the past year, and any feud that is attempted falls apart.
I wrote Dr. Wagner Jr. and I meant Dr. Wagner SENIOR. Sorry about that.
I didn’t think Jr. was a nominee, but, as always, deferred to your infallibility . . .
Sr. getting in is a much easier case, and I will still support Jr. in the future.
If Paco isn’t worthy, Neither is Pena.
Pena created a promotion from nothing and has kept it running throughout many ups and downs. Plus he is responsible for creating a bunch of the most popular stars/gimmicks in Mexico. The two guys aren’t even close to being on the same level.
Rob
But he wouldn’t even be around if Televisa didn’t save it after the konnan thing.
Maybe your right. Fuck it.