I don’t know why I’m doing all this CHIKARA news. There’s a perfectly fine site called CHIKARAFans that’s all over the CHIKARA news – oh, wait. Never mind, let’s move on.
A CHIKARA source (no, not him – let’s say Solider Ant) says Valiente not making the tournament is related to CHIKARA also cutting ties with Skayde, and probably what you figured: a falling out, at least in part due to money.
The story goes, the week after Team Mexico was announced, Jorge Rivera demanded his pay be more than doubled (and Turbo’s pay doubled as well.) CHIKARA wasn’t thrilled, but since they were stuck with the plane tickets and hotel reservations anyway and had advertised the team, they said OK.
For some reason, this was still not okay with Skayde, who told Turbo and Valiente to not get on the flight and take other bookings for this weekend, then went to the airport to convince Oriental not to get on the plane either. Oriental got on that plane – the Perros del Mal team will be there, invading buildings internationally – and Skayde talked to CHIKARA one more time to try and get the booking changed for the tournament. CHIKARA, knowing Turbo & Valiente weren’t coming, cut ties with Skayde at that point.
I still wouldn’t mind an interview with Valiente, but I would expect he would be as confused as everyone else. An interview with Skayde would be better. Obviously, there’s something more going on here if Rivera decided it was more in his interest to cause harm to CHIKARA than actually get paid. We can also make guesses at why he was doing what he was doing (hello comments), but it’d nice to hear his side.
Congratulations Mr. Quackenbush! You have joined the list of people who have experienced the “holding out for more money” business practice amongst luchadores. I was going to bring this up when Nikita wanted to discuss this a little further when Valiente was the only one mentioned. Its a pretty common practice that no matter how good of a business relationship you might have with a luchador or the person booking them, odds are that sooner-or-later they’re gonna want double the pay and they’ll ask for it after you think you have reached an agreement.
I’m sure if they asked for double the pay at the beginning of negotiations, it wouldn’t be an issue, but it always happens that they do it after verbally agreeing to a deal.
Nothing to be embarrassed about either. Shit like this happened a bunch of times in SoCal.
This isn’t the first time Skayde ripped Quack off.
In his SMV volume 2 shoot, Quack goes into detail of being jipped by Skayde on more then one occasion
in a lot of ways this has, “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” at its core, given the earlier story quack tells about skayde.
Just to be clear, Skayde’s actions still don’t excuse Valiente no showing (or CMLL if they played any part in his decision). He is under no obligation to listen to Skayde. I can see Turbo feeling tied to Skayde, but if Valiente was booked an cleared through the CMLL office, he could have still gotten on the plane and made his booking.
@Alan: Yes it does. Cubs just wrote that Rivera was handling Valiente’s booking.
@Alfredo: Sorry, the way I read this (and the original post yesterday) was that Rivera had handled his and Turbo’s bookings, but that Valiente was booked on his own and cleared by CMLL.
Regardless, I’d still maintain that he could have worked the show. Valiente has a whole lot less to lose by ignoring Skayde than Turbo would.
Popped big for this being filed under:
reasons why we’re never doing the luchablog.com sponsored show
Well, I would go a step further, and wonder if Valiente ever actually knew he was booked, or if Rivera just assured Chikara he was.
And business practices such as these are common in all of wrestling, not just Mexico. I have been witness to and victim of people booking me out without my knowledge – and there isn’t the coin involved with me that these guys are getting.
Interesting. Very interesting.
There are two sides to every story so I guess we just wait till Gladiatores can get a hold of Skayde and/or Valiente.
The major discrepency I want cleared up is how Chikara was under the impression Jorge Rivera would be able to get a CMLL guy (Valiente) an international booking. Is there anyone who reads this blog that thinks Rivera would have any pull in a company he doesn’t work for and be able to take one their contracted wrestlers on a 3 day tour in the United States? I highly doubt anyone can honestly say that’s believable. So it’s hard to imagine the Chikara folks (who are very knowledgeable about Lucha Libre) would be naive enough to think Rivera could bring in Valiente. Yes… they may have been conned by Rivera. Most wrestlers are natural born con-artists. However, as noted by odessa via Quack in his SMV interview, Quack has been burned by Skayde a couple of times before. So wouldn’t extra precautions have been taken to make sure this “deal with CMLL” was legit? Off the top of my head… Alexis Salazar. He’s easy to track down/talk to, is always willing to help and has contact with every wrestler in CMLL. Hypothetically I could have contacted him three weeks ago when I got nervous the Valiente to Chikara deal wasn’t mentioned by CMLL and hypothetically he could have just asked Valiente about it and let me know whether Valiente knew about Chikara or was completely clueless to this supposed booking.
I’m not taking sides, I just think there is a big part of this story still missing and I’d like to hear the other side too because usually you get the straight story by combining both sides.:)
Another hypothetical… instead of using Cubsfan to spread all this information after the fact, perhaps contacting Cubsfan in the weeks leading up to it and he’d have more than happy to play detective and check with some people he has contact with. At the very least he could have set the alarm bells off and ask the obvious question of why would Skayde be able to book a CMLL wrestler.
I talked to Skayde about this last night.
He says that Valiente and Turbo didn’t have their visas in time to catch the plane. And that he was at the airport but mike told him not to come.
As far as Skayde having pull with CMLL office your wrong he does, his cousin is/was the president of the sindicato which is the wrestling union. He could get anyone he wants at anytime. I know cause I have done the same.
But looks like Chikara should have done it thru Skayde or sindicato directly to get it done. Because Chucho would have put on the booking sheet that he was working for the sindicato then that would go on the weekly schedule and he wouldn’t be booked anywhere else.
Skayde went on to tell me that Turbos Visa got there on Friday but it wasn’t ready at the time the flight was to leave. Tho there may have been and issue of someone and possibly turbo waiting too late to get the paperwork together, but the bottom line was it was the embassy getting it late to him.
He never mentioned money to me even tho that could have been true.
If you want a interview with him, hit me up. You understand spanish? we can put him on a 3 way call if you like.
Again this is what Jorge told me.
WE can even call Turbo if you want, unless he changed his cell phone.
As far as Valiente not answering thats the old “i no showed and not answering my phone” gimmick that is done by everyone in mexico not just wrestlers!! LOL
call more than twice they cut the phone off, lived there 9+ years I know.
I have known Jorge for 10+ years, and he ALWAYS did what he said. the ONE time he didn’t was when Chikara went behind my back to setup a deal with him direct. He told me all the details and we are still friends cause i understand how it happened.
But people you need to stop painting Mike as some angel cause hes not!
@Gigolo Americano: Being in the business as long as I have, I have heard a lot of good and bad things about Quack, both from people who worked with him, and just rumors and stories and stuff. I have never worked with him, so I do not judge.
But, this is what I was talking about a couple posts back when I mentioned Chikara getting a free pass on this, because they have a rep on the internet. Right off the bat everyone blamed Valiente for no-showing, and now the truth appears to be that the fault lies with two internet darlings: Rivera and/or Quack. And, it looks like to the ‘net smart marks Quack will get the free pass because he books Chikara, and Chikara is “awesome”.
Espero este domindo hablar con Turbo y hacerle una pequeña entrevista si es que nadie la hace antes en video.
Saludos Chad!
Don’t get me started on Quackenbush, you wont win cause of his following.
Mike wont like to admit it but i helped him a lot, Got him booked on shows in Mexico, put one of my belts on him that he has in his title history and helped him set up the Skayde deal.
let my side be told finally on all this.
While Mike was in mexico we sat down at my apt and talked about Chikara and its direction, he saw the contacts that i had in mexico and how i could help him with his idea of becoming similar to Michinoku pro. small company and supply other companies with his talent.
I told him how i was good friends with the “Toryumon” trainer. Heck i had all of Toryumon at my house and was the only Gaijin at the time ever in the Dojo in Nacaulpan.
So we come up with the idea of these seminars, MIKE told me what he would charge the students. And i agreed to paying our airfare, hotel, food and rental car for when we did come.
Now MIKE came up with the price etc, he also told me that he would charge them like $5 -10 more because he had to pay the rental on the building and i felt that was more than ok.
I got paid by Mike not by the students. We did the same in MN with Arik Cannon. I set them up with the same deal and included Sumie Sakai and Ran maru in the deal.
But back to Mike. I NEVER asked for a dime more than what he offered to pay us!!
I talked to Skayde told him that i was paying for everything and what does he need for money, he told me and i paid it to him. In fact Jorge will tell you that what i paid him was DOUBLE and more than what he was getting paid a MONTH from U. Dragon!!
plus i paid EVERYTHING even his food for the weekend.
So i notice on our last trip some whispering behind my back to Skayde from Mike, and once talking to him while we go inside a Restaurant setting up the plan…
well the plan was he had someone and yes i know who, contact Skayde and set it up that Skayde stay and train full time. Oriental was there with us as well that weekend, again another thing i set up for MIKE.
But Then they ask me about him staying and changing his flight. I warned Skayde in the car dont do it, cause once he has used you up for all your moves and spots he doesn’t need you anymore.
Well he fell for it and i agreed, i Then told Mike ok but since i paid the ticket he needed to give me the $100 for the change. Well he gave me the $100 in cash.
That weekend the money was about $300 short he promised to pay, and to this day never saw it.
Well we get to the airport and i told the lady at the counter he would be staying and can i pay the $100 fee, and she told me not to they would charge it to my card when he checked in to leave. I said ok thanks and kept the $100 and flew home.
Well a day or two pass and i ask Mike where my money is and start flipping out cause he called the airline and they told him no the $100 wasn’t paid. So before he even lets me tell him about them charging my Card etc, he flips out and calls me a thief cause i make money of t-shirts and gear i bring back etc and i pocketed the $100.
He wont respond to my calls, emails or AIM messages trying to explain its OK they will charge my card cause i made the reservation and they wont actually charge it TILL he checks in. Now anyone who has ever flies knows this is normal procedure.
and that was the last email i ever got from him.
Skayde and I didnt talk for a long time because of this cause Mike was telling him i was robbing him.
So tell me this, and Skayde will tell anyone this. I asked him how much! he told me and i paid him that and sometimes a bit more.
I paid EVERYTHING he never even bought a candy bar. Now end of the day its still business and if i made $200 -500 or whatever on it then so be it. I had all the upfront expenses and risks. Now why is that any different than any promoter or boss. So burger king should pay some billions just cause they earned it? or WWE paying the whole gate at Wrestlemania to the main event?
also keep in mind MIKE set the price to charge i NEVER did or did i ask for more!!
But he convinced Skayde that i was robbing him, again keep in mind he got paid from double to triple after a seminar weekend and wrestling guarantee than he would in a month working in mexico wrestling or training.
Please keep in mind Mike could barely say 20 words in spanish and was taking classes, and i have a DVD to prove how his spanish was at that time.
Then Mike sets up this full time training deal with him, pays him less a month then he did with me, and has him living with someone else.
I went even as far to warn Mike that Jorge had some problems and to be aware of them cause i thought Mike was a friend still at this time. And i thought man if someone was living with me i would appreciate the heads up.
Plus Mike was aware of these issues as it caused us to no go one weekend cause of them. So he takes the help i thought i was giving him and turned it around to a negative.
Thats the whole story.
I know many people especially in Mexico and some in Japan don’t have much respect for Mike cause they know that Chikara was
“helped” Built on Skayde and his training. Mike does seminars teaching what he got from Skayde and that people find very disrespectful.
again “helped” not all because of Skayde, skayde was a small but very important part.
any questions feel free to ask, Mike can’t even deny any of this and I have said all along that if Mike would have just gave me a minute to explain it would have all been good. was more of a misunderstanding than anything.
But again he had already went behind my back and set up the Skayde deal so he needed some reason to cut me out and that was perfect for him. he had his “OUT”.
Now this is not bashing mike or Chikara. Just facts
Hola Compadre!!
Como estado? Y tu Papa? Saludo a el para mi!
Ojala que viene a Mexico Pronto, Hasta Pronto Amigo!
@Nikita: Maybe they were defending Chikara because Cubs posted their side of the story first. I dunno, I checked this post and read the following from Cubs about Skayde “We can also make guesses at why he was doing what he was doing (hello comments), but it’d nice to hear his side.”
Kind of hard to defend the other side when there isn’t any info coming from them at that time. Most people are commenting on what was most recently posted and don’t really have the full details.
I can say that inside the wrestling indie world, Quack is known for being a compulsive liar.
@Alfredo: I was not talking about reaction on this blog. If anything, Cubs was the first to point out that this booking had the likelihood to not happen.
While the Chikara promotion might be an internet darling, presumably most people have heard all the stories about Quack (true or not).
It was always said to me by people to look at how many relationships (personal and business) have bad endings with Quack and to draw your own conclusions.
Personally, I have good dealings and not-so-good dealings, but those were only on a very superficial level.
We’ve reached (and then sped past!) a point of diminishing returns. I’m not saying you can’t complain about Quackenbush or Skayde, but the farther we get from “why Valiente is not in Philly on Friday”, the exponentially less that I care. Or feel any need to host. I’m sure this will restart if those video interviews happen (thanks BTJr.!) but I’m closing the comments now.
how about that puma king, he’s kinda cool