Averno defends a title against Fantasma (but which one?), other notes

Previews of tonight’s CMLL show: ESTO, Ovaciones. Ovaciones has the NWA belt being on the line here. ESTO just says the middleweight title, as does the note on the Ras de Lona preview. CMLL.com says the CMLL title.

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If you ever wanted to make a point about how little these titles mean, you probably would point to a situation where no one even knows what title it is, and it doesn’t really make any difference. Whoever wins the title tonight is a double champion, and that won’t mean much either.

Fuego en el Ring talks to Ultimo Guerrero about his success this year. UG says Ultimo Guerrero may be more famous than he was when he started out 12 years ago, but he’s the same guy he’s always been when he takes off the mask, and the bigger star you become, the more humble you need to be. Does this mean Artillero gets to be a jerk?

The Kataharis lucha libre exhibit is now in Puebla.

Veneno in a movie. Guadalajara wrestlers go to NASCAR Mexico. Some of those same wrestlers participated in an a 8KM Race. Palacio Negro won among the wrestlers (35 minutes, 10 minutes behind the winner), then won the cage match later the same day. Order of finishes were Palacio Negro, Skaxy, Cosmico, Saturno, Rafaga, Magnifica, Angel del Mal, Metal Blanco, Gallo, and Leon Blanco.

Cesar wonders why CMLL is not bringing in anyone from TNA, suggests how Friday shows could be tighter and better paced out, and wants new rivalries between prelim and main event guys, even if it means tecnico/tecnico and rudo/rudo. On the last one, while I think the type of people who read this blog would generally be excited for something like the Romanos vs Averno & Mephisto or Super Comando & Artillero vs Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero (though maybe not so much for Trueno/Negro Casas), my guess is the general public will look at them as non-competitive unimportant match and not turn out for them. Plus, those matches are interesting because they’re different, but after a while of doing them, they won’t be different much any more. CMLL could definitely use more meaningful and interesting matches, but CMLL needs to do more than one quick feud per show to make things meaningful, instead of just scrambling for a big main event every so often. I totally agree that the lightning matches should be leading to something or more meaningful than just an extra match they do each week and almost never follow up on, but that goes for a lot.

Kcidis has looks at Infierno en el Ring.

The new edition of Ras de Lona is up.

Luchas 2000 #479 has the 9 men in the cage match, plus the new young Lizmark Jr.

Ohtani’s Jacket watches Dinastia Navarros vs Cerebro Malignos without knowing the thrill of the IWRG/Super X feud.

LuchaWorld has Robert on AAA 05/25/08 and CMLL 05/24/08, as well as KrisZ’s news update.

Lineup

CMLL (WED) 07/22 Arena Coliseo Acapulco
1) Angel de Oro, Angel de Plata, Maximo vs Hooligan, Misterioso II, Skandalo
2) Hector Garza, Mistico, Toscano vs Ephesto, Mr. Niebla, Negro Casas
3) La Sombra & Volador Jr. vs Averno & Mephisto [CMLL TAG]

You know, CMLL could create a page on their website and just put up the graphics of their lineups, instead of having people randomly stumble upon them while checking out message boards. It’s an idea.

27 thoughts to “Averno defends a title against Fantasma (but which one?), other notes”

  1. I think the CMLL one will be defended tonight. But seriously why does Averno basically have two versions of the same title ? Does Valiente have a title ? If he don’t give the NWA one to him, case closed.

  2. CMLL/TNA vs. CMLL/TNA would be interesting. Like Angle/Mistico vs. Cactus Jack/Negro Casas. Would have to be done this way b/c the politics of TNA vs. CMLL matches would be a disaster.

  3. @LLL: CMLL/TNA vs. CMLL/TNA would suck. Any fan worried about TNA not sending talent to CMLL, probably doesn’t realize how shitty TNA is or how much they’ve killed most of the guys who probably would have been sent to Mexico (AJ, MCMG, Joe, etc.) in the past year alone. Not like they were ever going to send Angle, Foley or Sting. Sending AJ, Joe, or any of those guys won’t draw more people to Arena Mexico without a good storyline backing it and last I checked CMLL doesn’t put much thought into that part of their booking and lets not even bring up how stupid TNA is booked already and the further away CMLL is from them the better. Last thing we need is folks in CMLL drinking the Russo Kool-Aid when it comes to crappy booking.

    The only wrestlers from TNA who would be worth bringing in are some of the women like Awesome Kong, Alissa Flash, Daffney or The Beautiful People.

  4. I agree. TNA would not send the top stars like Angle, but would expect Mistico in a talent exchange. That’s typical.

    But for a one shot, I think Angle and Cactus would do fine. Even better with buildup.

  5. I said CMLL b/c that’s what the Hi5 page says and also the NWA titles are very important in Mexico (except for the one Demon has ironically enough) so they wouldn’t give Texanito the belt and have it overshadowed by another youngster winning such an important belt in the same calendar year. Just ask Dr. Lucha!

    Here’s the thing that will always bother me about Mexican wrestling fans… they respect U.S. guys 10x more than their own. Look at Cesar’s comments on the TNA guys. He wants to bring in BOOKER T! BOOKER FRICKIN’ T!!! Granted I don’t watch TNA but I think it’s safe to assume Booker T hasn’t turned into a superworker who would fit in doing Lucha Libre spots. Nor would he draw any fans. Look at who TNA sent already… a bunch of X-Division dudes who meant nothing for attendance (though nothing was really built around them). But my main issue is every Mexican seems to treat the U.S. guys as bigger stars. The TNA guys work in front of the same 1000 fans at every taping. The CMLL guys would be embarassed if they worked in front of 1000 fans at their home arena. Yet when TNA says “hey, we’ll send you Sonjay Dutt!” – he gets put in the main event or semi-main event at worst. When CMLL sends their guys to TNA… they job out on the undercard unless it’s one of those World X Cups. Do you think TNA would even consider for a moment bringing in Ultimo Guerrero to challenge Samoa Joe in the semi-main event of the next PPV? Of course not.

    Look at the WWE… they bring in Dos Jr. and he’s jobbing in development. Can you imagine if someone from WWE developement quit and flew to Mexico to work for CMLL? He’d be an instant main eventer and the foristas over on the ByL forum would cry if he wasn’t immediatly challenging Ultimo Guerrero for the Heavweight Title.

    Why do Mexicans have such low respect for their own wrestlers compared to U.S. wrestlers? Especially when the U.S. companies have clearly shown in the past that they have very little respect for ANY Mexican wrestlers no matter how important they were in Mexico. (i.e. Vince telling Santo he wanted him to unmask for Super Astros)

    That’s something that has always bothered me and no Mexican fan has ever been able to explain to me.

    Cesar’s other point about tightening up the shows makes sense which is why it’ll never happen. Also let’s not forget the entire Mexicans being lazy thing is a stereotype but a well-deserved one when it comes to CMLL. This is the same promotion that signed a deal with TNA, made a big deal about announcing it and saying which wrestlers were going over on which dates… and then promptly booked those same wrestlers for matches in Puebla the night they were supposed to fly out.

    Isn’t Feliciano in charge of making things run smooth on Friday nights? He’s always standing on the ramp and giving people cues while wearing a headset.

    Does this look like the kind of guy who is worried about things running smoothly? -> http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1834/bookerman.jpg

    As for Cesar’s third point… it would work but it would take lots of time to make it work. As Cubs points out, at this point nobody would pay to see Los Romanos challenge Sombra and Volador for the tag belts. It would take a while to start booking new shows that mix everyone together (like when I booked Arena Neza) and have the fans start to see Los Romanos, Los Guerrilleros and Rey Cometa/Pegasso as serious contenders to the top guys.

    Since it’s a long-term project… the current CMLL staff would never be able to pull it off.

  6. BTW, LuchandoLibre had a fantastic tweet one day that is now my ByL forum signature and something you may want to bust out once in a while (i.e. weekly) to describe CMLL…

    “luchandolibre: Antes de que me llamen tendencioso por lo del CMLL, piensen, ¿Puede la empresa más antigua cometer errores de novato?”

  7. Really? You think Angle would give any offense to a guy half his size?

    A lot of the CMLL vs TNA fantasy matches would be fantastic…

    … for TNM.

  8. Angle vs. Negro Navarro would be the IWC’s wet dream come true.:)

    BTW Rob, Angle lost a lot of weight. He looks much smaller nowadays.

  9. @Alfredo: Even smaller I would think he’d still be double Panther’s size and no way his ego would let the match be competitive. They call them “fantasy” matches for a reason.;)

  10. The reason Cesar and others (including Ocampo -probably) hate AAA is not that AAA is “Americanizing lucha libre”, but that they’re Mexicanizing wrestling when they want to see pure US Wrestling in Mexico.

    All 3 points are basically saying that CMLL should have 1 fall matches, main or semi main guys at the start of the show, no rudos/tecnicos and US style wrestling – they already have it, mostly.

    The problem, maybe, comes from many of those fans wanting to revive the “Canek days” from el Toreo and wanting to see foreigners no matter what… and of course, they want to see Canek in “La Catedral”.

    They funny thing is that both Ocampo and Cesar were saying 3 years ago (in byl foro) that the keyfabe should be dropped in Mexico and that that was the main reason our wrestling was years behind US and Japan, which, of course, I said it was the dumbest thing ever… I now found it funny since in their ArMex reviews, they strictly enforce the keyfabe even in some ridiculous situation (ie Panther’s injury from a few weeks back).

    Tightening up the shows won’t be of any use. If they wanted to do something, it should have been done 2 years ago, at the time, the same complaints as today existed, but they were disregarded because they were drawing OK. Had they tightened the shows back then, they could have prevented or at least minimized the slump, but now it is too late.

    What they need to fix is their tv show. They went for using the magazines/newspapers to build their angles/feuds instead of TV, and the results are showing. Why did they announce cage participants on a Sunday show which is only seen by the few people who has mvs? Why is it they didn’t air the Japanese/Warrior promo leading to the hair cage match? Going back to Garza’s turn, he never said it on screen why it had happened (because he didn’t trust Averno and Mephisto), Etc. If they fix their tv show (which seems aimed to the internet marks, as seen by “invitado especial”) and make their product look exciting and interesting, they would have people back in the Arena and the down time between matches would be irrelevant (if anything, it is valuable to eat and drink). If they make shows tighter but on tv it comes off as lame as ever, it will serve no purpose.

  11. From Tercera Caida, Garza won in Puebla setting up a title match for next week. In other news, Angel Azteca, Jr. and Angel del Oro were brought on for a bit, so someone remembers they are in his group.

  12. Obviously, guys like Booker T and Kurt Angle are not a good idea. See any of Ultimo Dragon’s shows where he brings in bigger sized guys (Rene Dupree, Yoshihiro Takayama, Kensuke Sasaki, etc) and pairs them up with top CMLL guys (Ultimo Guerrero, Atlantis, Mistico). The CMLL guys get exposed.

  13. @Rob: When I saw him and I think this might have been a few weeks ago, he was growing his hair back and he looked thin. I had heard he was losing weight, but he kind of reminded me of the pornstars in LA that go on those vegetable diets (and probably still do meth) and all that is left is the big boobs, skinny body, and the sun tan.

    I think Angle would allow a match with Blue Panther be competitive if he knows who he is and his reputation, but then I don’t know if Angle knows him or seen him wrestle. Then again, I wouldn’t be shocked if Blue Panther had never heard of Kurt Angle either.

    I definitely think CMLL needs to put in some more work on their angles/feuds on TV and also their web site. If I was running their website, you’d have huge headlines on the front page like “Fujinami dormido durante conferencia!” with a pic of Naito sleeping. Followed by a story about how the Japanese guys showed no respect at the press conference. Also a story about the upcoming cage match along with another article on the history of cage matches at Arena Mexico (w/ pics). CMLL does very little with their web site. They don’t even have profiles for Caligula, Messala or Que Monito! WTF!

  14. @Alfredo: Sure, TNA is shitty, but foreign fans can be forgiving. TNA did huge business in England compared to the US. They did huge business in suburban Toronto for their debut. I think Angle and Cactus debuting at ArMex would do well at first.

  15. @xuisaw: CMLL should have 1 fall matches. The number of falls they do does not mean they can’t wrestle Mexican style during the match. As long as a percentage of the guys have masks, do the traditional lucha moves, and have stip matches fans want to see, it’s still lucha.

  16. Oh my god I just realize you guys are talking about Foley still wrestling. That must be so sad to watch.

    @LLL: “As long as a percentage of the guys have masks, do the traditional lucha moves, and have stip matches fans want to see, it’s still lucha.”

    Yeah but 2/3 falls is the standard format of wrestling in Mexico. It’s just the way it is and it sets Lucha Libre apart from it’s American counterpart.

    What’s next? No more trios matches? Okay. Trios matches are out. 4 singles matches to 1 fall, 2 tag matches to 1 fall.

    What’s next? More interviews instead of just post-match challenges? Okay. Start the show with a Mistico interview, do a few singles matches to one fall, run an angle on the big screen where Ultimo attacks Mistico backstage and do a tag main event of Mistico/Sombra vs Ultimo/Bucanero. One fall of course.

    What’s next? Wrestlers the fans can identify with more instead of masked superheroes/villains? Okay. Mistico gets unmasked during an interview segment and says he will wrestle as Antonio Gomez (random name, sorry Mascara Magica). Just a hard working kid who grew up on the streets and now wants to defeat Ernesto O’Campo (that’s Ultimo Guerrero now). He wants a one fall singles match. We aren’t building to a big show for that, we’re just doing it to main event Arena Mexico that night with no build at all.

    Congrats, you’ve turned CMLL into just another U.S. indy trying to mimic the WWE.

    Sure I took it to some extremes but you get the point. You may have been better off to suggest they make all big stip matches and title matches one fall since at this point with the length of matches being shortened to fit nicely into TV time it makes no sense to do 2/3 falls matches where guys are selling exhaustion after 4 minutes of two falls and rarely if ever any more do title/stip matches end in two falls so the second fall is pretty much entirely skippable b/c you know the result ahead of time.

    For comparisons sake – let’s wait till Saturday and analyze the results of Fantasma/Averno and Shocker/Texano this week. It’ll probably be exactly the same with two quick short falls traded and then a long epic third fall. I’d be much more excited seeing both matches as a straight one fall match to see what the guys could do with the extra time given and if they’d even be able to handle it.

    BTW, while it’s on topic I’d also like to mention how much I hate it when people say CMLL needs to cut down on six man tags and do more singles and straight tag matches on shows. It’s a great idea in theory but do you realize how many wrestlers would be jobless? CMLL has roughly 110 wrestlers on the active roster. That works when you need an average of 24-32 guys per show with 3 major shows a week. Now if you’re doing singles and tag matches that immediatly means you only need 12-22 guys per show. Are you going to be the one to explain to half the roster that they are no longer needed? It’d a ridiculous theory. About as ridiculous as someone wanting to see Foley in Mexico in 2009.

  17. I think they should hand the booking duties over to Que Monito. I don’t know what it is about him (maybe the blue fur), but I get a sense that he is an evil genius capable of writing compelling storylines in pro wrestling. In fact, I think he’d turn TNA around too.

  18. I’ve kinda said this before on here… Mexicans wanting to see foreign wrestlers is no different than, for example, US fans getting of puroresu stars showing up in the States.
    If done *right* it is a good thing to mix in outsiders and foreign stars. It is a mistake to change your company philosophy + structure for said stars, or to emulate what they do.

  19. @Rob: Of all the aspects of Lucha Libre, I think the 2/3 fall matches is the least important. I’d put more importance on masks, high-flying style, and one big stip match per year.

    Six mans are a must for the most part. But not every match. I thought people here were excited about the relampago matches?

  20. I realize that I am in the minority here, but I would applaud any interaction between CMLL and TNA. I agree that top guys in Mexico should be treated better in the US, but I think the interaction between the two different styles is interesting and could help both companies. But, that is dependent on both sides getting over political issues which I think is unlikely. The most likely interaction between the two companies seems to be when there are tournaments on either side. I think these are great, but there is the potential for much more. If only they could agree to match up Dark Angel and Sarita, I think the matches could be unbelievable…

    Ignoring the last sentence above, I do think that everyone can gain if foreign stars are brought in, not asked to change their styles significantly, and treated appropriately (not above or below where they should be on the card). Mixing styles is good for everyone right? All sides can learn from the others. I thought this is what made the X-Cup and Grand Prix enjoyable last year.

  21. @Rob: Despite my feeling like bringing in foreigners with different styles can improve overall product, I agree that there is no need to change up the overall trios, 2/3 falls style of CMLL. I don’t think there is a need for everyone to wrestle the same style, just that they can learn for each other. I love the longer matches that the CMLL style brings out. But, I think your argument for taking the title matches/stip matches and either making them one fall or booking them better (why not have some two fall matches or give the first and second falls meaningful sequences?) makes a lot of sense.

  22. All this talk about TNA and CMLL, better be careful what you wish for because someday Kevin Nash is going to want to take a summer vacation in Mexico and we’ll be seeing 4-on-3 matches with Kevin Nash in the role of Gigante Silva.:)

  23. @LLL: Lightning Matches are a fantastic idea to give exposure to guys who usually don’t get them. I think the idea of one per show is fine with perhaps an unofficial champ being crowned and you needing to win 2 in a row to get a shot at the champ. For example La Mascara beat Felino and then he beat Efesto. He should have faced Virus next since Virus up until that point would be the unofficial champ with 3 wins over the first few months. Virus could beat him and then you could do a mini’s lightning match and then get back on track by getting two new guys like Rey Cometa vs Messala. Cometa wins and faces Vangelis the next week. Vangelis wins and faces Stuka Jr. the following week. Of course this would take some planning in advance so that’s out the door with CMLL.

    Fantasy booking aside… I think we’d all be dying for a trios match if every match on the show turned into a Lightning Match. Plus you don’t want to see something like Toscano vs Ray Mendoza Jr. in a Lightning Match.

    It’s a great match to have as a special attraction. You don’t want to ruin it by overexposing it like those awful TNA PPV’s with 15 cage matches.

    @Alfredo: Another example of how I just don’t get Mexicans… one person replied on Cesar’s blog and mentioned Kevin Nash by name as someone he’d like to have in Mexico. I mean seriously… WHY???

    @Alan: Ironicially enough I just finished watching a Stuka Jr./Virus Lightning Match from Puebla in February. Do you recall seeing that? I would use that as a good example of what CMLL singles title matches should be like. They went over 10 minutes and had a ton of nearfalls using each others signature moves. It was perfectly done and would have passed for a perfectly acceptable title match in Arena Mexico. Now if you had taken that match and applied the current format to it, the flow of the match would have been cut short right away as one guy would have had to win a fall and then the other guy would have had to use a roll-up within a minute of the second fall. In fact I’m pretty sure that’s exactly how the Garza/Ultimo title match will go once I watch that tomorrow.

    (Wow, I just realized next Monday will be the second time Garza is challenging for the same belt in Puebla.)

  24. Tiger Mask makes his V5 defense of the IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title against the Mistico on the 8/15 Sumo Hall show

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