CMLL (FRI) 06/27 Arena Mexico
1) Bam Bam & Último Dragoncito vs Pequeño Warrior & Pierrothito
2) Diamante Negro vs Vangelis, Skandalo, Bronco III, Puma King, Tiger Kid, Hijo del Fantasma, Hijo del Faraon, Axel, Metalik, Astro Boy, Angel Azteca [cibernetico, Gen75]
3) Blue Panther, Dos Caras Jr., Shocker vs el Hijo del Perro Aguayo, Terrible, Villano V
4) Dr. Wagner Jr., Héctor Garza, Místico vs Heavy Metal, Mr. Niebla, Negro Casas
ESTO preview. The most noteworthy part of the event isn’t listed; the Wrestling Observer says Dr. Alfonso Morales has quit as announcer on CMLL’s main show. CMLL is still ticked at Arturo Rivera and wanted to start costing him his other jobs, like his Box Y Lucha column. Morales runs the magazine, refused to fire Morales, and walked out on CMLL. Some people talk the talk (*cough*wagner*cough*), Dr. Alfonso Morales walks the walk.
Technically, Televisa is in charge of announcers, so they may ultimately have a say in this. I’d guess they use a guy from one of the other shows.
In actual matches, main event is Wagner versus his rivals with the tag champs along for the ride. Panther/V5 continues on the semimain. Dimante Negro, Axel, Hijo de Fantasma and Metalik have to be the favorites in the Generation 75 cibernetico. I’m going to guess Diamante.
If Niebla can’t decide what the name of his group with Negro and Heavy is, then I’m not going to acknowledge it. I did learn something from that Hector Garza press conference after all. For his part, Atlantis says the door is still open for Niebla or the Casas brothers to join the Guerreros.
ESTO talks to Bucanero about TNA. They mention the tag team win and Rey beating Alex, and no other matches. Expected as much. SuperLuchas has video from last night’s Impact, which featured the tag match. I’m guessing Rey’s 74 shirt is to remind us of his birthday coming up.
(Mr. Reyes) Zumbido turned up at last night’s IWRG show.
There’s a bit of controversy around Sunday’s AAA taping, and it has nothing to do with who’s actually on the show. A local ticket seller blacked out the prices on the tickets, and selling them for higher than advertised on the poster. Local authorities see this as fraud (though not enough that they’ve taken away the tickets), while the ticket reseller maintains the prices were originally incorrect and he’s just charging what he was authorized by AAA. No word from AAA in the article, presumably they couldn’t get a hold of anyone there.
AAA () 07/18 Complejo Cultural Siglo XXI Lineup
1) Super Kiss, Estrella de Plata, Triple X vs Tarahumara, el Dante, the China Boxer
2) La parkita, Mascarita Divina, Octagoncito vs Mini Abismo Negro, Mini Histeria, Jerry Estrada
3) Estrellita, Fabi Apache vs Mari Apache, La Hechicera
…
Tirantes is running this show on 07/18 in Puebla. Because he’s Tirantes, he’s gotten both AAA talent and indy guys working the show. The top matches will be a incredible trios tournament, with 24 wrestlers randomlly placed into teams. The list of scheduled wrestlers, via Mr. Reyes: Cibernetico, Mil Mascara, Blue Demon Jr., Kenzo Suzuki, Octagon, Tinieblas Jr., Elegido, Pimpinela, Zumbido, Psycho Clown, Killer Clown, Cassandro, Hijo de Anibal, Latin Lover, el Mesias, Zorro, Tinieblas Sr., Chessman, Fuerza Guerrera, Scorpio Jr., Decnnis, May Flowers, and Intocable. Lineup is very subject to change.
Promiciones Navarez Brothers has started a blog on lucha libre in Chetumal, including history of wrestling in the area.
There’s a local (to me, anyway) FREE show today in Villa Park.
GALLI (FRI) 06/27 CartMart USA, Villa Park, IL [CPW]
1) Stress & Venom vs El Potro & Pinocho
2) Golden Star & Mr. Zeus vs El Guardian & Emperador
3) Joey Marx & Negrotistico vs Ainsworth & Tony Scarpone
4) Meteoro I, Meteoro II, Silueta Dorada vs Blade, Chilango, Resistencia
5) El Tigre, Nemesis (Galli), Slayer vs Demencia, El Funebre, Pentagon del Infierno
6) Centella de Oro, Quianto Sol, Samuary vs ?, Amenaza del Siglo, Gringo Loco
This starts at 5, which means it’s going directly agianst the last few innings of the Cubs/Sox game. Not quite the way I would’ve gone.
It would be great if Televisa didn’t force their announcers onto CMLL. They’re not as much a part of the show as they are in AAA.
Enough people get FSE in Mexico City that CMLL could just say “F^ck you” to Televisa, and make FSE their main show and not have to deal with Televisa anymore. That would be great.
@luchalibrelive!:
“Enough people get FSE in Mexico City that CMLL could just say “F^ck you” to Televisa, and make FSE their main show and not have to deal with Televisa anymore. That would be great.”
Yep, it would be great if you want to see CMLL running out of business, even when C52Mx was there, they run a megashow with Mistico and Negro vs Averno and Mephisto for the tag team title and Diana vs Amapola hair match and drew less than 5000 with MVS and FSE being the guys pushing the show… yeah great… you could have mentioned Cadena3 which airs free over there but I guess anything not on cable doesn’t count.
C3 is the greatest CMLL show on the air currently. If anyone suggests it be taken off the air or shortened, they should be put to death. Or made to watch an FSE show.
The strength of the Friday night tradition at Arena Mexico is not dependent on Televisa’s Canal 9 coverage. CMLL promotes their house shows on Televisa 9, and not all Sunday and Tuesday shows are a huge success. When CMLL airs on Saturday, they don’t even announce next Friday’s lineup on the air so Televisa does nothing for ArMex.
Yeah, I meant to mention C3 since it’s OTA in DF and basic on Cablemas around Mexico. So FSE and C3 and 52mx and local deals are good enough to support them and not deal with the bullshit of Telerisa.
I remember when WWE announced they were going cable exclusive in 1996,and leaving free tv, so everyone wrote their doomsday forecasts for WWE. Two years later, they set all kinds of ratings and attendance records. Best move they ever made.
RE: luchalibrelive in 1996 WWE moved Superstars to cable but they didn’t abandon free TV. They still had syndicated programs.
Hijo Del Fantasma is a lock tonight… at least in my book. The only upset I can forsee is Axxel taking it from him but that’s like a 1% chance. Everyone else has 0% chance of winning it unless both El Hijo del Cominsionado and Axxel get injured in the first few minutes. Even then the commisioner’s kid may pull a Valiente and just stay on the apron till it’s time to win.
Cubs – if CMLL called tonight (after the game of course) and told you they need you to help out and book an 8 on 8 Torneo for Arena Mexico next week featuring only the top top TOP guys in the company with the only restriction being the teams have to be comprised of 8 complete tecnicos and 8 complete rudos on each side. Would you be able to book something like that? Remember – tecs vs rudos and only the TOP guys.
I’m suggesting that CMLL can leave Televisa and make C3 and FSE their main shows.
True. WWE didn’t totally leave “Free TV” in 1996, but they stopped paying for time and RAW(cable) has been their main show every since, and it has worked out well.
@luchalibrelive!: if WWF was getting TV in a strong slot on a major network – exactly what CMLL and AAA are getting – they wouldn’t have given it up. Paying for slots on lesser channels at bad times is an enormous stretch.
IWRG’s not getting the talent it could get specifically because it’s TV is so weak. The guys are afraid they’ll be forgotten if they’re not on major network TV on every weekend. Is Fox Sports stronger than TVC-Deportes? Maybe, but they both pale to the reach of an over the air station.
@Rob: Yes, I could! Though I wonder if there’s catch when you say “complete”
oh, I bet you wanted me to actually do it, huh
Atlantis
Ultimo Guerrero
Negro Casas
Heavy Metal
Rey Bucanero
Black Warrior
Lizmark Jr.
Olimpico
Dr. Wagner Jr.
Mistico
Hector Garza
Marco Corelone
Shocker
Dos Caras Jr.
Sombra
Volador Jr.
I skipped the Perros because I see the ‘complete’ catch coming there. Obviously, I’d trade out Olimpico and Volador for Perro Jr. and Averno if I could.
Raw airs on Weds. nights on Mun2 in the US, and i think that’s the channel in Mexico that they air on now. i dont know if it’s basic or premium though. what’s funny though is that it airs in English, exactly as it did on Mondays with the commercials coming at the same times.
Look at WWE. They’ve been drawing off cable/satellite in Mexico for years now.
In Mexico City, CMLL can definitely draw off FSE if that was their main show. Or if C3 was their main show with better matches on FSE, they’d still do the same gates in DF, Puebla, GdL. I don’t know how they’d do in other towns. Like Cd. Madero where CMLL just had a huge gate.
FSE is much bigger than TVC Deportes for sure. FSE is basic on SKY and cable. TVC Dep tends to be digital tier.
The point is, Televisa is oppressive, and won’t let either group do what needs to be done to grow. AAA still jerking around at toy conventions with Televisa. CMLL still can’t put their big PPV’s on in the US because of Televisa. And when there is a PPV, the announcers don’t really mention it, and production does not run graphics. Sad.
@Bruce:
Yeah. mun2 is really English language. It’s very strong though. I don’t think mun2 has the rights to air WWE outside the US. In Mexico, it’s on 52MX.
@thecubsfan:
The biggest change in the wrestling business in the US was going from “Pay for Play”(buying time) to getting paid for programming. WWE and WCW always paid to be on in syndication and lost millions until they concentrated on cable where they get paid.
Not sure what CMLL and AAA get, but the groups do sell their own sponsorships which keeps them going.
My gripe is that CMLL and AAA need to get into the PPV business on an international basis, and they don’t seem to have enough control over their programming in order to be successful in that field.
@thecubsfan: You consider Volador Jr. and Sombra to be TOP guys? Both can regularly be seen working terceras at both Arena Mexico/Coliseo. To me a top guy is someone who is never below the semi-main AND/OR can be sent to main event a little town and be teamed with an undercard guy but it’d still be considered a main event type match. I.e. Dos Jr./Valiente vs Atlantis/Sangre Azteca works… I’m not so sure Volador Jr./Valiente vs Olimpico/Sangre Azteca works.
Either way… I was just setting up for a follow-up…
Now CMLL tells you that’s a great match, good job Cubs and Panico pats you on the ass or something… now all they ask of you is to put together a trios match underneath but you still need 3 top tecs and 3 top rudos who I assume will be comprised of the Perros Del Mal guys you left out of the Torneo. Which top 3 tecs do you match up with them while keeping in mind you still need two more underneath matches – a segunda using usual segunda guys (no women) and an opener with whoever you want b/c it doesn’t matter to the point I’m trying to make.:) (which will hopefully be proven unless you outmaneuver me)
Business is very different, AAA and CMLL has been doing quite well for years and they hardly “need” the PPV business and even less on an international basis, they would need to change the whole business model to do so and that’s partly what Konnan is doing and that is getting upset fans, workers and press.
Wrestlemania or Survivors and Rumble have never been on the air for free, so they are always seen as PPV stuff, but why would fans be spending their hard earned money on Juicio Final or Infierno en el Ring when they’ve seen dozen of shows probably better than those for free? The companies would need to re-educate their fans to accept PPVs and I don’t see it happening if ever, for a few years.
Boxing had also a strong tradition, but fell hard and had only the bottom part of ArMex opened for their shows and drawing hard houses, when Televisa pulled the plug on the show, the Lutteroths simply stopped doing shows. CMLL knows this could happen to them, FSE and C3 don’t cut it for them, IWRG has a better deal with TVAzteca and they have not grown at all, save for when Wagner worked there (since he’s recognizable from the Gala show). AULL was with C3 and same story, they couldn’t hold it.
@xuisaw:
PPV is going to be a part of both groups futures. A PPV bought by 30,000 homes in the US and Mexico would be more than a $300,000+ gross for CMLL or AAA. Not too shabby.
Chui,
For example, what would have to change in the business model of today to make PPV work for CMLL and AAA? Only obstacle I see is Televisa.
@luchalibrelive:
WWE has one show on regular tv. Smackdown is on CW, which isnt a cable channel it’s pat of basic programming.
@Rob: If I was sure LA Park was a tecnico, he’d be on that side. Blue Panther also could take one of those spots, but I’ve been planning ahead.
3: Perro Jr./Terrible/V5 vs Panther/Valiente/Sagrado
2: Nitro/Dr. X/Bronco III vs Flash/Maximo/Hijo de Fantasma
1: Tzuki/Dorada vs Mini Halloween/Mini Damian
Yea, that third match isn’t all top stars, but you can’t have 22 top stars – it’s impossiblef ro that many people to be on top.
@thecubsfan: Well you’re killing my point which is simply that there are FAR TOO MANY top rudos in CMLL and very little believable tecnico challengers.
My top tecnicos list would be: Mistico, Wagner, Shocker, Dos Jr., Corleone, Garza, Panther, Parka.
(Note: Wagner/Parka don’t get along, Wagner/Mistico don’t get along, Mistico/Garza being teased as not getting along.)
My top rudos list would be: Perrito, Ultimo, Rey, Atlantis, Terrible, Negro, Metal, Black Warrior, Lizmark Jr., Niebla, Universo, Averno, Mephisto, Aguila.
2:1 ratio by my count and then you factor in the dissention in the tecnico ranks and it leads to very little top tecnico possibilities which is why CMLL seems to do many rudo vs rudo feuds.
My point was the Negro/Metal turns were unneccessary and weaken an already weak tecnico side as Metal didn’t make much of a difference. Plus with Niebla returning as a rudo, did you really need him to form a new group and now have 3 different top rudo trios while the tecnicos can’t even get it together to have ONE top group?
Then I’m very concerned about the drop-off after you go through those top tecnicos. La Mascara/Sombra/Volador Jr. could squeeze in but guys like Sagrado, Valiente, Fantasma’s child, Koslov (he’s over but not a top guy), Felino and Purpura haven’t even been put on the level of the above three so they are far away from being top tecnicos. Meanwhile on the rudo side the dip isn’t quite as noticable with guys like Sangre Azteca, Olimpico, Texanito, Damian, Efesto, Misterioso II and Villano V all ready and able to step in with the top guys and (IMO) easily outrank any of the second-tier tecnicos.
I’d like to see a top rudo turn tecnico to balance things out a little bit more. If Warrior could get his act together I’d pick him but he’s too unreliable. Aguila would be great since he’s got the moves and could form a natural team with Garza but I don’t think he’d be as big as… Atlantis. It’d be obvious and re-doing the same formula they had some years ago but Atlantis as a tecnico would freshen things up a BIT.
@thecubsfan:
Should CMLL divide into two brands like Smackdown and Raw? I think it could work.
TNA average 30,000 buys per ppv and business is not exactly booming and they nowhere near CMLL and AAA on a business level. That $300,000 disappear quick.
AAA and CMLL have the right business model. WWE is the worldwide leader so they can get away with certain things but NO ONE else can copy them. TNA always try to follow WWE and they always come out on the low end.
AAA and especially CMLL has the perfect business model for them and Mexican fans. They don’t need to do nothing drastic.
@USAUSA1:
PPV will be a big part of CMLL and AAA’s future. That’s clear. $300,000 in PPV revs is based on clearing about 3,000,000 PPV homes in Mexico, and clearing the US market, which is 7,000,000 Hispanic PPV homes. Between the two markets, I’d hope they can sell 30,000 homes.
How much do you think it costs to do a PPV from Mexico City?
Wow… I just noticed SoloLuchas ranks everyone’s chances of winning the Torneo tonight and has the top two as Hijo Del Faraon and Tiger Kid. They must know something we don’t.:)
Keith, I remember when PPV was just talked about here, and then it really got it’s big even with the Chavez vs Macho Camacho match that had the cable guys actually patrolling the city with the coders ready to be installed since the anticipation was that high… but many years later, boxing is run on free tv again, PPV didn’t catch with boxing (and since the big bouts are from other places, it might cost nothing compared to putting shows on CMLL or AAA) and it’s even less probable it will catch in lucha libre.
Fans are used to watch stuff on tv for free, and it doesn’t really matter if it is live or not, it will be hard for both AAA and CMLL to create anticipation in the events if fans can not see something as a must see. I mean, there have always being big masks and hair events that don’t get on tv at all, but guys just go and watch the next show and that’s it. Until CMLL and AAA change their model around and make it TV oriented, possibly with live shows (which might kill ArMex gates) PPV won’t be a factor, might it be the future? Who knows… always in motion is the future… But if Televisa drops CMLL now, you could see the guys who own their name leaving the company and pretty much all of their sponsors.
Camacho? What year was that? Cable/satellite is growing in Mexico. PPV is too. Look at SKY, Cablemas, Megacable, Cablevision. They’re all growing, and continue to do so. Boxing has been dying in Mexico for years. Local arenas and tv ratings died about ten years ago.
A big stip match like Panther/Guerrero or Panther/Villano on PPV will do numbers as long as the commentators tell everyone it’s a PPV. There’s a reason why SKY/CMLL have been doing PPV’s for almost a decade now. They sell. And when Anniversary 75 rolls around, CMLL won’t disappoint. They’ll give everyone a great stip match, and it would be stupid to give it on free tv.
92, which is my point, Cable and Satellite are at their highest point, and still, boxing left the PPV because the buys were not there and Free tv offers more money.
I don’t mind AAA and CMLL doing 3-4 ppvs per year. That’s okay and is the way they used to do it 20 years ago. But monthly ppvs is a risk and most likely will hurt the business down in Mexico.Rushing tv to put out a ppv every month is not a good look. The US ppv market is down for wrestling due to there being too many ppvs and UFC and HBO Boxing competing for the same demo. Between WWE and TNA there’s like 24-28 ppvs if am not mistaken. Oh, I forgot ROH ppvs which is an extra 6 ppvs, so there’s 30-34 ppvs right there in the wrestling field. Even back during the Monday Night Wars, the ppv business was not exactly booming. It was all about tv ratings.
@xuisaw:
It’s true that PPV is not as developed in Mexico as the US. Good example is the Argentina vs. Brazil soccer game that was a PPV in the US, but aired on TVC Deportes in Mexico.
Still, with 5,000,000 PPV homes and growing in Mexico, and the potential of getting coverage in the US too, PPV will be a revenue stream for CMLL in the future. Only hold up in the US has been Telerisa.
@USAUSA1:
Two CMLL PPV’s a year would be perfect. Anniversary and Lutteroth shows available in the US and Mexico would be a money maker. PPV market continues to grow in Mexico, while the Mexican population grows in the US. It’s a good scenario on both sides of the border.
“Warriors”, an MMA event is listed on Cadena Tres tonight.
Just because there are 2,000,000 homes with cable, doesn’t mean they’re “PPV homes”, you need to have an additional gadget, don’t know elsewhere, but in La Laguna, a girl who worked at Megacable told me that guys with the coder were relatively small, like one fifth or less…
Also, you have to think that Lucha Libre is mainstream in Mexico, saying that it has to go PPV is like saying that the Superbowl would be doing better business being on PPV.
Well, the Superbowl will be on NFL Network in the next few years.
PPV addressable homes is in the millions. SKY, Cablevision, Cablemas, and Megacable subs are all updated, and can order from home by pushing a button.
I remember when WWE aired their MSG, Spectrum, Maple Leaf Gardens, etc… shows on cable for free. I always thought people would reject PPV after years of watching on tv. But times change. CMLL has been keeping their big stip matches off Televisa for years. Something even more special about seeing it live. Two PPV’s a year for CMLL and AAA is the way to go.
You might got your wish, it seems that there’s no CMLL Gala show according to TVGuide and Esmas… hear that? That’s the sound of Wagner jumping to AAA…
Wow. I see a 1994 soccer match in CMLL’s place. Let us know what airs Chui. But you don’t get Galavision in Laredo without cable so you can’t tell us what’s happening over-the-air. Actually, a small indie(2) in Laredo was airing CMLL for years, but I don’t know if they still do.
Can you imagine if CMLL refused to let Morales to play-by-play so Televisa responded by pulling CMLL off the air? LOL.
Wagner won’t leave over a dispute with Telerisa. There’s life outside Telerisa.
Only reason Wagner went back to CMLL is that he wanted TV exposure IWRG/Azteca were not providing, AAA asked him to work tapings and spot shows, which Wagner didn’t want to do, so went to CMLL where he’ll do only some tapings while keeping his own bookings at indy shows. IF CMLL gets no TV exposure, Wagner will leave, Aguayo and a few others as well…
AAA airs over a local channel although at a different time slot (I know since I was at the supermarket and guys were watching AAAMania although it was over in the Gala live feed) I don’t know about CMLL, but I think they might also be aired over here locally.
I say we’ll see Morales AND Rivera back in ArMex soon…